An interview with ESVDiamond

Patrick 'ESVDiamond' Soulliere is the CEO of ESVTV, broadcasters and owner of the Korean Weekly tournament held in Korea. ESV also has the leading map makers working for them, and has produced maps such as Korhal Compund, Testbug and perhaps most notably, Cloud Kingdom.

Diamond and ESVs The Korean Weekly can boast such players as PuMa, Squirtle, Jjakji and Taeja, making them a prime place to scout up and coming talents.  I talked to Diamond about ESV, map making, the korean weekly and ESV going ESPN, have a look.

 

Hi Diamond, could you please introduce yourself to those who may not know who you are.

Diamond: My name is Patrick Soulliere, I go by ESVDiamond, I am 26 years old, I live and grew up in Michigan surrounded by Starcraft. I currently run ESV TV and the ESV map making team, and I’ve been involved with eSports for about two and a half years now.

Could you please tell us how ESV came to be?

Diamond: ESV was originally started under the name IccupTv this was back during the beta of starcraft 2. I just wanted something fun to do. There was currently nobody streaming like professional starcraft 2 matches at this point, only a couple of ladder streams, but nobody was really streaming at all. So I always enjoyed watching Starcraft and watching the GomTV leagues in Brood war so I decided to just create a little channel for some fun and it was like I tell everyone it went sideways, but in a good way.

ESV has a great map making team, with people like Superouman and Monitor, is it hard finding talented map makers with today’s custom map interface?

Diamond: Yes... Let me think about that, uhm, OK. I would say yes and no. Because, you’re not going to find the good map makers on battle.net, but all the good map makers tend to congregate around team liquid, where I have found all my map makers, I think, everyone besides JackyPrime (Now ESVJacky)… So I guess that’s a yes and a no. There is at least a good way. Everyone that has ever made a map has probably checked out team liquid. And have been to the map section there. That sort of helps that all the major tournaments they all mention team liquid and that’s where the hub is for maps, as it so happens.

Diamond sitting with SK_MC

Do you think that the “Arcade” system will have a positive or negative effect on melee map making?

Diamond: I have been invited into the beta, I have not really tried it yet. I think it will be interesting. I need to sit down and really play a bit more. It will really depend on the full thing. I feel like it’s going to help because it will help create a clear distinction between competitive melee maps and custom maps. They will be two very different categories. Because from what I have seen, in arcade, the custom melee maps are under Starcraft, they are not even under the “arcade” part. So, that will make it a little bit easier, they will stick out a little bit more.

They won’t be mixed in there with stuff like “nexus wars” which it (Melee maps) will obviously never be more popular than. I think it will be a good thing, it has a lot of potential. There will of course be the main question “what will it look like when it’s done” which is always the question with blizzard. They always have one vision for something, and then you always get a slightly worse version of it when it finally comes out. The question is, how worse will this be? I think they have the right direction they are taking, with what they are doing to “Arcade” and the general concept behind it.

Yeah, they seem to be doing all the things right for Heart of the Swarm, at least thus far.

Diamond: Yeah, I mean, I don’t want to say “everything” because it’s so hard to tell before we get that beta up. But what I have seen is definitely progress and each time… I don’t cringe everytime I see a new battle.net post about something pop up on reddit, I’m not like “oh god, here it comes” Like every time they are like “here’s the new seasons ladder map pool” I’ll be like “OK, time for me to get very upset, let me go read whatever they have to say, but hey look, the notes were incorrect” but now it’s like I’m genuinely excited. There may be some stuff there that is not the best, but there is still some stuff that will definitely be good. But they are heading in the right direction; it’s just been going off the path for so long, it’s taken them time to figure out how to get back on it.

ESV took 3 out of the 5 top spots, including 3. And 1. Place in the first TL map contest, do you think this will contribute to future talented map makers choosing ESV over other map making teams like TPW or the Korean prime team?

Diamond: I think. No… I think, again it’s a yes and no question. Of course this gave us prestige, I think any good map maker is going to see that, and you can see this with Jacky looking to join us it has. We are the only one that is really like a team. I am like, in the management role the other teams are just a group of friends making maps, and that’s fine, there’s nothing wrong with that, but that…is not the team experience and that is not going to put up as quality results on a consistent basis.

It’s a lot easier to have somebody that is neutral looking at maps objectively, someone that doesn’t make maps, like myself, than a bunch of mapmakers that is bias. So we take care of a lot of this stuff that other teams doesn’t. I handle, dealing with the tournaments. I handle… basically everything, all that the map makers have to do is make maps. And I will find players to play on their maps, I’ve set up the ESV channel. So there are people to practice with, and I think that is why you are seeing the best of the best continually come to us.

You recently had one of the top Korean protosses join the ESV chat channel and play a few games there; do you think this will happen again?

Diamond: Oh yes. For those that does not know, the player was Slayers.Crank, a really, really great protoss player very underrated, I think he’s probably one of the top ten protosses… without a doubt top 15 on the planet. He used to play for SKT-1 in Brood War. Anyways, he enjoyed that a lot, he personally said he would be back. I know there are a lot of other Koreans who would like to do stuff like this.

It gives them a lot of exposure, so it’s good for everyone.

Diamond: It doesn’t necessarily give them a lot of exposure. Like if they go to MLGs they’re going to get more overall exposure than they would just doing this. What this does is give them really good fans. Fans that get to play a player, they will always remember that. I still remember when I played Catz back in the beta, like it was yesterday.

People remember that, and it’s just going that extra mile. It’s good for him, and it’s good for his career. And he really enjoyed it. So he will be back, and I will grab more Koreans. Crank won’t be the only one. If you are Protoss for instance, and hate PvP, eventually you will be like “hey look, here’s this Korean zerg”, whoever it may be it will happen for sure.

That sounds great, I’m still sad I missed the first one.

Diamond: Yeah, it was pretty spur of the moment. I think I came up with that in like three minutes. I noticed Crank wasn’t on skype, and I sent him a tweet. And I got him on and said “hey, would you like to do this eventually?” and he said “yeah, when do you want me to do it?”And I said you can do it now if you want. It’s up to you, because we weren’t broadcasting it, it was just for the fans. And he goes “yeah, I’ll hop on right now” I gave him an account to use, and he was there.

So, I think he’s gone on a little bit of a vacation recently. That’s why he hasn’t been back yet. He really had fun, and a lot of the Koreans would really enjoy stuff like that. They really like fan interaction.

Recently on twitter you have been talking about the bad map pools in different tournaments. Why do you think this is a problem so long after release, with so many tournaments having already tried and failed with a lot of maps?

Diamond: Nothing will ever baffle me more than this. I do not have a good answer for that one. I don’t know why. Making a map pool is not easy. It’s not like you grab seven map names out of a hat, and boom, there’s your pool. It’s very calculated, there’s a lot of synergy between different maps and how it changes overall flow, veto systems etc. But I think it’s because nobody…Again, I don’t know why, but maybe they need a guide, actually I’m looking at my screen right now, I’m writing up a guide on how to make map pools, and it’s one of these things I thought people would just get.

I could’ve maybe made this a year ago. But I thought people would just figure it out, and if people figure it out for themselves they would feel better. But they didn’t, and the fact that Terminus is still used in any modern tournament is unacceptable on every level. The TakeTV Homestory Cup that’s for homestory cup only, it’s an invitational. The Homestory Cup is still a great event, I’m still going to watch it, Terminus or not. I enjoy those events immensely. However, Terminus does not have a place in Starcraft for a large number of reasons, the biggest one being its size. It’s too large. Modern maps are not like that.

Calm before the storm had the same issue. And you see that it’s already pretty much been phased out of almost every tournament for the last 6 months, and tournaments have had this problem for a year and a half. It’s baffling; it’s really easy not to pick a map like terminus. How does it even come into the discussion? No one is using it, except for Homestory apparently.

Image couresy of GosuGamers: http://www.gosugamers.net/general/news.php?id=18596

 

Do you have any new maps that you enjoy more than the others? The next “Cloud Kingdom”?

Diamond: I haven’t really seen any new maps that have struck me like Cloud Kingdom. The few that did were Daybreak and Testbug, the really popular newer maps. And I haven’t really seen anything like that in a while. I think Korhal Compound is actually going to start to make an appearance with its new tournament edition soon. It’s actually a pretty good map with it. It undoes a lot of the weird changes that Blizzard made.

But while Blizzard made it more fun for everybody, there was a reason a lot of the things, for instance the positioning of the natural, and with it a choke, was the way they were. And when Blizzard made that change, it changed the whole concept of the map. I think you’re going to see a lot of resurgence of that map. Right now I think Daybreak and Cloud Kingdom are the golden standards, I don’t see anything to replace them at this point.

Four player maps are the next thing that has to be heavily explored at this point. The current four player map pool, including our own, ESV is just not up to par with four player maps at this point. So I think if we’re going to see a big map that’s going to change everything, it’s going to be a four player map.

Are any of your current map makers working on a four player map?

Diamond: Yes, I don’t know who’s working on it at the moment, we have like seven maps going at the time, so it’s kind of hard keeping track. But I think we have two or three under development. And a lot of the maps also, they go under development for maybe two months, and we cut them before they ever go out to the public. So that’s not to say that those two or three maps under development are going to be those maps, they may not.

We might not even release them and make another map right after. It’s too hard to tell before you have the finished product, because, a lot of the smallest details will make the Cloud Kingdom the Cloud Kingdom. Everything about Cloud Kingdom comes down to the exact, specific things about the map that if were a little bit different, like on the beta versions of the map, would not be very good. The finished product is really where you see it, and you go OK, this is what we need to look at.

Didn’t Superouman release pictures showing cloud kingdoms progression from start to finish?

Diamond: Yep. Superouman actually keeps track of all his maps. He has every version of every map he has ever made. I didn’t actually find this out until he did that interview. I asked him how he had these, and he said he kept them all. I think that’s a Brood War map making thing, because in Brood War, if you updated a map, and it didn’t work like you planned, it was a problem returning the map to how it was in previous versions.

On to the Korean weekly, why did you start a Korean weekly tournament to begin with?

Diamond: To fill the gap, what I mean by that is, at the time, in Korea, there was GSL, and if you didn’t play GSL, you did nothing. The Korean players at this time were not going to foreign events. There was maybe one or two. There were three, there was MC, Nestea, well not even Nestea at this point, but MVP and Bomber. And nobody else was going to foreign tournaments. And this was at the time when Code A only had prices for top two.

Or it was really bad, you only made 100 dollars for top 16 code A. combine that with no salary, and a lot of these players was not making money. This presented a way for them to make money, us to present a unique tournament that nobody else had and also for us to fill a gap, to prepare the players for code A, B or S. You didn’t have the chance to play against these players in a competitive environment. You were only playing on the ladder or against teammates in your team house.

So I sat down and I thought of something new to do, and I had already done what was called the “IMS invitational” which was a custom map tournament with Startale, which Bomber ended up winning, before anybody knew who Bomber was. And I had always thought that if you wanted to do something in Korea, you would need 10/20 000 dollar prize pools. And I found out that wasn’t the case. And when I realized that, it was a natural fit.

GSL had exclusive rights to host tournaments in Korea, did this turn out to be a problem at all?

Diamond: I wouldn’t call it a problem, it was a slow process. MR. Chae is an awesome guy. He was very accommodating. Although being known in the North American scene, they didn’t know the North American scene, so there was definitely some trust issues that had to be resolved. And part of that process was the “IMS invitational”, we paid the players on time, and that was a good first step of showing them that “we are trustworthy, you want us to run tournaments here, and that we represent your players well”. Everything went right.

Once we established that trust, it was really easy for them to tell us “go ahead, do what you need to do here”. And I thank them a lot for that, they gave me email addresses for every coach in Korea at the time. That was like the proverbial golden key they handed me there. And they also let Torch help me out quite a bit, because at the time he was the main foreigner contact at GomTV. So I just had to show them, since I was not an MLG, or very established organization that has paid out hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years, I had to show them that I was a real organization that was really dedicated to provide something. Even MR. Chae said we) really need something like this. And I was ready to provide it.

Diamond holding the feet of a beardless TLO 

Winning the weekly grants you a code A seed, we’ve seen NsHs’ Jjakji win the GSL and Liquid’Taeja use it to great effect, getting all the way to the round of 4, and now StarTale'Squirtle is in the finals all of whom have won one or more Korean weekly, is the weekly a good place to see the new up and coming Koreans, and do you think a foreigner will have a chance to win it at some point?

Diamond: To clarify, we’ve only ever given out one Code A seed, and that was to Squirtle. Jjakji won a Code A qualifier a week after winning the finals of the Weekly, and Taeja was already in Code A or S when he won. But as far as is “it a good looking glass into the window of the future?” absolutely! There is no single qualification tournament on the planet that predicts success as the Weekly. You look back as to who has gotten top four, who’s won the finals, and remember that all these guys were no names, and are now all big stars.

The first winner, the two very first winners of the Korean Weekly were Alive, and PuMa was just a little bit known back then, but he wasn’t that well known. And PuMa, who nobody besides Artosis knew, and PuMa made his mark there. Two weeks later, he was the NASL champion and signed with EG. And Look at Jjakji, wins the Korean Weekly out of nowhere, literally was a no name back then, two seasons later because of the GSL setup, he wins Code S. Squirtle wins his Code A spot because of our finals, now he’s in the Code S finals against MVP. Taeja, top eight GSL made it to the winners bracket of the IPL open bracket.

If you just look through the weekly, there’s an incredible record. Gumiho is another one who is, again, top eight Code S, and got started through the weekly. If you want to look several months ahead in the Korean future, watch the Korean weekly, use it as a qualifier. There’s no tournament that I’ve ever seen, outside of tournaments like MLG. But that’s because you have the top 200 players, and only the best will win, that has predicted success as well as the Korean Weekly. That I think is part of the reason we get such high viewership despite the low prize pool.

What about the non-Korean winning?

Diamond: That can happen! It’s actually more of a logistics problem, than a skill problem. Because most non Koreans go to Korea for the GSL, that’s what their teams want them to play in, that’s what they’re training for. And unlike the Koreans, they have salaries, they have travel full packages. They are making money, and have made money winning weekly tournaments in America and Europe, so they want to focus on the GSL.

Very few of them, unless they are there long term, like a Jinro or Sase, want to play in the Korean Weekly just because they are so focused on playing in the GSL, because if you are a foreigner and win the GSL, you are a hero forever. You will be remembered in Liquipedia for starcraft 4 and its expansions. People will still be talking about that. So I think it’s possible to see a non-Korean winning the Weekly, but I think it’s unlikely due to how the nature of Korea is at the moment, unless something majorly shifts.

Something new that happened in season 3 was releasing replays, Korean players usually guard their replays, is this something they protested? Has some players not signed up for the weekly because of this?

Diamond: Nope, no one. I’m sure someone has not signed up for specific weeklies. Take for example Jjakji, when he was in Code A, he is very protective about his replays. So I had a feeling he didn’t play, but now that he’s done with Code A for this season, he signed up for the next weekly.

So, I think although they are not protesting, some are not playing because of it. But I think that is an acceptable price. You lose a few good players, but you gain hundreds of replays, that is a very small price to pay, and you still get top players like Gumiho and Taeja playing, now Jjakji for example. So, people like DRG might never play this tournament. DRG is as far as I know one of the most protective of his replays; so, don’t expect him in the Korean weekly.

You also decided to run the weekly most of the day on playback, meaning people in different timezones can watch it when it fits them, do you think this is the future?

Diamond: I think maybe not for tournaments, but for stations. MLG, if they were to put their championship on repeat 24/7 they wouldn’t have anyone watching after a week. Because everyone would know the results, it would be a week old, but for stuff like ESVTV and maybe like ESLTV that do weekly stuff with lots of fresh content, yeah. It’s very confusing this doesn’t exist already. This is something I’ve wanted to do since the beta.

But now only just had the technology to do, It’s the same reason why TV works, and why people still love TV. You flip through the channel, and there’s something on. But on the internet, and especially for Starcraft, you would have to go to special sites like team-liquid, look at their schedule to see what streams are live or not, but now, you can just turn on ESVTV after you come home, sit in your computer chair and boom, something is going to be on.

Maybe you saw it, and maybe you didn’t, but reruns never hurt anybody. And It’s very easy, you don’t have to sit and choose one VOD (video on demand) and then the next VOD. You can just sit back and watch at any point. It offers various experiences for the viewers, but I don’t see why this will not become the standard, and it’s very cheap to do, and very easy to do at that.

Any tournament that does events on a regular basis, like Playhem or IPL can do it.

Recently, ESV has been working with the StarsWar tournament, how much is ESV involved with this Chinese tournament?

Diamond: Not really a whole lot, we cast it for them. We are basically a production and broadcasting company at this point, sort of what an ESPN or FOX does for traditional sports events. StarsWar basically hand over their production and broadcasting to us. We don’t actually run the game or anything. Say for example a basketball game in the NBA, the officials are NBA, CBS doesn’t run the officials, CBS doesn’t run the format, but they run how the production looks and feels, and that’s what we do for the English side of StarsWar.

Normally if there’s a walkover in the bracket, I can tell my broadcasters exactly what happened, that this player showed, and this player didn’t, exactly what happened, in this event, I can’t. But that’s fine, I love doing this event. I feel we do production for Starcraft very well, short of having a tricaster. And the more stuff we can do like this, the better. Because this benefits everybody, StarsWar gets a bunch of free coverage, it cost them literally nothing, they don’t have to pay a penny for any of the coverage, and hundreds of thousands of viewers seeing their sponsors.

And for us it is great, we get advertisement money, we get to promote the ESVTV brand, and we don’t have to actually run the tournament. We don’t have to find sponsors for the tournament. So I’m hoping more and more companies will start looking at this type of model, for example you might see an MLGs in the future where ESV… This is not actually going to happen, I forget people might read too much into this, but just as an example, where you watch an MLG and you can turn on ESVTV and see us part of an MLG live event, we would in the MLG studio with our casters, and our production.

We would have our own specific stream for an event. And eventually you get a network, you get… OK, the NBC, FOX and CBS are ESV, StimTV and PlayhemTV type of thing. And those are the guys you’re going to call up if you’re going to run a tournament, you have one or two streams that are your own, and then you have the other streams come in, and they still get to promote their brand, and they still get to make money, but you don’t actually have to pay them. It’s a great deal for everybody! Because they will pay themselves with ad money.

Alright, well, thanks for the interview, any shout outs or words before we end?

Diamond: Just to TT esports for sponsoring us and the Korean Weekly, they’ve been a big help! I really hated dealing with sponsors, every sponsor I ever had more or less, besides Twitch, Twitch is good. But that was not a traditional sponsors relationship. And TT esports has been the best sponsors I’ve ever worked with, they’re so involved with what we’re doing, they’re so hyped up about what we’re doing. I can’t thank them enough.

 

Make sure to follow ESVDiamond on twitter: https://twitter.com/ESVDiamond and check out ESVTV for top korean Starcraft 2 gameplay: http://www.twitch.tv/esvision